Spinning, how the......? - Page 2

UnCorked · 10-04-2005, 07:36 PM

Actually you do not want to look over your shoulder. As you ski up the transition keep your feet at a nice stable width. as you approach the lip wind up your body, if you spin counter clockwise like me turn just your upper body slightly to the right. Just as you leave the lip(not on the lip) spin your upper body. Lift your left arm(or right if spinning clockwise) and look under your arm. By looking under your arm it pushes your shoulder backwards forcing you to spin. Once you are in the air looking under your arm you can spot where you are and begin looking for the landing. Once you see the landing focus on it and the rest of your body will straighten out for the landing.

The key things:

Spin right as you leave the lip, spin to early and your tails will catch the lip stopping your rotation. Most snowboarders spin on the lip, as they do this you see them pull up and hunch into a little ball to keep the board from hitting.

Look under your arm, pushing your shoulder backwards. Just try it standing in a room. Look behind you at the ground over your shoulder, then try to look behind you looking under your arm. You will notice right away how your body will twist to allow you to look at the same place.

Focus on your landing, just like everything else you are going to go where you are looking.

philsthrills · 10-04-2005, 10:50 PM

We are all assuming that you already are a decent jumper.

If that is not true, you have other work to do.

For practice, you would do well to learn jumping 180's on the slopes. Land backward, then do another hop to land forward. This will give you some of the experience you need to feel the spins. Remember when landing backward to look backward, even if just for a split second. That helps you to stay lined up.

Once you are a good jumper and you can do the 180 drill, you may be comfortable enough to move to the real deal. It sounds counter intuitive, but don't look for the smallest jump you can find to start your 3. It is better to find a mid sized jump that will allow you time to comfortably get around.

There are two different ways that you can approach the jump. For a 360, it is not really important which you choose, so try them both (the approach matters more for higher end tricks). The idea is that you cannot spin off of a flat ski. There must be some friction to spin off of. Your edges must be set, albeit lightly, in order to initiate a spin.

The first approach is one that you will tend to see when a mogul skier hits a jump - especially if he is spinning the same direction as the last turn. You will have your skis at least shoulder width apart, but wider is sometimes better. From there, you will pressure the inside edge of each ski. From here you will do your wind up as both Gurp and UnCorked have stated. Unwind at the takeoff.

The second approach is the one that I like better, but is not by any means an overall better way. This is a little more flowy. If you have a good run in to the jump, carve a long smooth arc the opposite way of which you are spinning. Then lightly initiate a carve in the direction you are spinning. The idea is that your carve should be timed so that you leave the jump going straight off. If you are not lined up straight at takeoff, it causes a transfer. Doing a transfer while spinning is dope, but save that for later. Now you will be on an inside and an outside edge at takeoff. Be sure that you are edging with your ankles - you do not want to be leaning to edge - that will screw you up. (to imagine this, while you are sitting at your computer, keep your legs straight, but roll both of your ankles as if you were skiing toward the direction of the spin - see - no lean, just ankles) Before takeoff, wind up again and unwind at takeoff. This approach should make it seem like there is less wind up because you are "turning into" the jump.

There are your two takeoffs. Now we move to the maneuver. Gurp and UnCorked may disagree about where to look, but I think that they are both right. Looking under your arm is an important skill to have down the road and will help you to progress - especially in off-axis spins. However, at this stage, it may be just as easy to keep your body aligned - much like a traditional helicopter (old school 360). In other words, stand up straight, and let your body turn as you look over your shoulder and spot your landing. This will look a little stiff to start off with, but you can get loose and add your own steez later.

Once you spot your landing, it is time to stick it. Again, keep your skis apart for a wide base of balance. "Reach" for your landing with your feet and absorb upon impact.

Ski to a stop, take a bow toward the lift, and then go work on your 5's.

Teague · 10-09-2005, 08:43 PM

Philsthrills pretty much nails it. A common downfall I see a lot with people learning 3s is the nemisis of every skier... The back seat. It sounds really simple, but so many people either lean back on their way up the tranny, or set their spin so that they slowly rotate a 360 to back slap. Even people who can straight air bigger tables seem to lean back when trying to spin for the first time because it's a foreign concept. This is probably something you can help remedy by practicing 180s on the jump you want to 360, but even 180s allow you to lean back on takeoff (since you want to be leaning over your tips when landing switch). It's especially easy to rotate backseat when you're starting out on real quick kickers instead of giant tables with huge gradual trannys. Anyways, I find it helps if you try to "pop" straight up off the lip of the jump to ensure you spin on-axis instead of popping perpendicular to the take-off, which usually results in the ACL wrenching tornado-360 to back slap. Maybe that helps a little?

It's taken a little early and with a full compliment of BC gear on my back, but it's the best I could find for motivation...

philsthrills · 10-10-2005, 03:24 PM

The getting forward issue is a good one.

To address it, instead of just unwinding into the 3, think of throwing your leading shoulder (left shoulder for clockwise, right shoulder for counter) forward at a diagonal across your body to initiate the spin.

It is very rare that you see someone land a 3 too far forward, but you see them landed back all of the time.

Daver · 10-11-2005, 10:00 AM

Stay forward, and look at the rear tips of your skis. The further around you look the more you will spin. I know its bad form, but i also find it a lot easier to swing your outside ski over your inside as soon as you leave the kicker- i find it makes it really easy to initiate the spin from there (plus it looks awesome if you time it and grab the heel binding as you start to spin...).

gurp · 10-11-2005, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Actually you do not want to look over your shoulder.

Why? If this is so it is strictly a skier thing, but I doubt it.

On a snowboard a great way to keep out of the backseat when learing to spin is to grab in the direction you will be landing. Ie, if your landing with your tail pointed forward grab your tail through the spin, if your landing with you nose pointed foward grab your nose through the spin. Something similar should apply to skis.

philsthrills · 10-11-2005, 11:44 PM

Be careful of giving advice based on what you have found that you do (and what your friends told you to do). What you do may not always be the most helpful way for someone else to learn.

There are two basic kinds of 3's that I see on the hill. One is a 3 that is off of the correct size hit for the spin, and the other is a 3 off of a hit that is probably too small, but some people can force it to happen. Some people can even jump off of the snow and do a 3 without a kicker.

Daver, from your reply, I am guessing that you are a good athlete (at least on skis). I am also guessing that you do the latter (listed above).

By looking at the rear tips of your skis, you are doing two things:
You are creating a situation that actually increases your tendancy to lean back, and
You are twisting your body to achieve the 3 as quickly as possible.

When I say that you are a good athlete, I am guessing that you can make spins happen by doing things in ways that are not as natural. A lot of people cannot pull that off.

I would argue that for someone learning a 3, looking at the tails of your skis will make you immediately look down and back. Remember - where you look is where you'll go. This puts you in the back seat.

As far as crossing your skis as stated, this is a consequence of twisting into the spin after you are in the air.

The idea behind a good 3 is that you get all of your spinning energy off of the lip of the jump, then your body unwinds back to neutral so that it spins as a unit.

If the jump is too small and you force it by twisting your body, then you are also forcing yourself to untwist for your landing. This leaves very little room for error. If you are rotating as a unit, you have room for error to set your boards down at different angles (over or under rotate) because you have room to twist if you NEED to.

Teague, thanks for the pic. It is a good example: Nice 'cross with your body lined up in the same direction that your boards are pointing. You are spinning as a unit.

Gurp, I addressed the looking over your shoulder above, but I would like if you could clarify what you were saying about the grabs.

Grabs will be dictated by timing. An early grab makes some easier and a late grab makes others easier.

I tend to like early grabs personally, because it sets my body in line as a unit as stated above. Then you can hold that sucker as long as you want.

As far as SB 3's compared to Ski 3's, if you read my earlier post, the "S" line approach to jumps is directly from snowboarding and is now done by skiers. Uncorked mentioned earlier that "most snowboarders spin on the lip, as they do this you see them pull up and hunch into a little ball to keep the board from hitting." This is again an example of trying to spin too hard.

A good 3 should look smooth and not forced.

Daver · 10-12-2005, 12:13 AM

Philsthrils- i have to wait another 6 months to see if i can do what you're saying, but from memory it makes more sense (especially for someone learning to spin). As much as i agree with everything you've put down, i don't really understand how you're speeding up the spin by looking back. Fast spins are sketchy (and they also look pretty poor)- but you should be able to moderate the spin depending on how far you look back.

Also, I reckon looking back is going to be safer, because you're spotting the landing from earlier on. If you lead with your shoulder/head then you will be able to see the landing faster, and hence adjust you're spin/tuck to the landing. It's the same technique as when you're doing 360s on bikes- use you're body to pull your feet around.

Another useful (possibly, anyway) thing that i got from talking to a mate was to practice on flat ground, and just popping up and spinning (180s are going to be easier than doing 360s as you're learning).

Good point about it putting you into the back seat, but it's not as hard as it seems to address this. I don't know about carving up and off the lip, as i can only see that you're going to hip off the jump unless you have you're timing dialled. It will work on a snowboard because the fact that you're turning is going to initiate the spin, but on skis your weight will still be going down (up?) the fall line, and carving off the lip won't throw you into the spin.

philsthrills · 10-12-2005, 09:37 AM

Daver,

Good post, and well thought out.

Bummer about the six months. Our season is about to start here.

You may have missed or misunderstood my first post. First of all, I did recommend that you look back. That is very important that your head is turned so that you can look ahead of your spin. You mentioned looking at the tails of your skis though. That is looking too far. Your head only turns about 90 degrees, so if you are looking at your tails, you are twisting your body. That is also what I meant by speeding the spin up. Basically, I just mean that you are trying too hard if you are all twisted up. Your head should lead your spin until you get to the point where you spot your landing. Then your head should stay in that direction through the landing phase of the jump. This is what I meant in my first post when I said "look over your shoulder".

I also mentioned the flatland 180's.

As far as carving into the jump, I said that you want to be at the point in the carve where you are going straight off of the jump. The "S" approach is just to get you started into the spin. Without wind up, the "S" approach is not going to actually make you spin, it just sets you up nicely. Also take note of what I said about just carving from your ankles. If you actually angulate into a carve, you are going to throw yourself off when you hit the jump. When you hit the jump, you want to be over your skis, but still on edge otherwise you cannot initiate a spin.

Here is an exaggerated approach line. No comments on the drawing please - I know Napoleon Dynamite could have done better. "It took me like 3 hours to do the curving of the approach line."

gurp · 10-13-2005, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Gurp, I addressed the looking over your shoulder above, but I would like if you could clarify what you were saying about the grabs.

Grabbing right after take-off helps set your body position and weight distribution. By grabbing either in front or behind you (depending on whether your landing fakie or not), you are able to shift your weight in the direction you are leaning. The farther up/back you grab the more pronounced the weight shift. By staying in your grab you restrict yourself from any "reactionary" movements that may throw you off your ideal trajectory.

So, if I am spinning 360 (riding normal) and I want to stay a bit in the front seat (so my base lines up with the landing), I grab somewhere in front of my front binding right after I leave the lip. When I end my rotation my weight will still be shifted toward the nose of my board, keeping me in the front seat. I then release my grab and lower the landing gear.

Daver- As Philsthrills said, you don't necessarily carve into the jump to initiate your spin. You often carve into the jump to counter the inertia shift that occurs when you start your spin. If you are spinning counterclockwise, you are shifting your inertia towards your left edge off the jump. By carving on your right edges going towards the lip, the inertia shift will actually keep you from transfering to far onto your left edges.